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What You’ll Learn
Andy Johns is joined by Chris Townson, CEO of West Carolina and Upcountry Fiber, to talk about what makes a strong partnership. Chris shares candid lessons from working with telcos, electrics and municipalities—including how to evaluate opportunities, align missions, manage egos and build lasting agreements.
Recorded live at the Calix ConneXions conference.
Guest Speaker
Chris Townson
Show Notes
Transcripts have been lightly edited for clarity and readability.
Intro: A production of Pioneer Utility Resources. StoryConnect, helping communicators discover ideas to shape their stories and connect with their customers.
Andy Johns: What makes a good partner? That’s what we’ll be talking about on this episode of The StoryConnect Podcast. My name is Andy Johns, your host with Pioneer, and I’m joined on this episode by Chris Townson, who is CEO and General Manager at West Carolina and Upcountry Fiber. Chris, thanks so much for joining us.
Chris Townson: Yes, sir, Andy. My pleasure.
Andy Johns: We are here at the, I guess, the epicenter of rural broadband this week at the Calix ConneXions conference in Las Vegas. And so, as we always say, if there’s anything that you hear extemporaneous in the background, it’s not background noise, it’s ambiance. So that’s what we’ll go for here.
Chris Townson: I like that.
Andy Johns: So, Chris is right off the stage about an hour ago from a panel that he did on partnerships. And I think it’s been a topic that we’ve talked about on the podcast before, continues to be a topic that folks are looking at with all of these miles of fiber and broadband needed to be built. Sometimes working with other people and other organizations is the best way to do it. Tell us a little bit about Chris, if you don’t mind, the partnerships that you’ve been involved with. Certainly, at West Carolina and then any at your previous stops along the way you wanted to get into as well.
Chris Townson: Yeah. So again, thanks, Andy, for having me on today. I’m excited to talk about this topic. I’ll start out by saying that we definitely do not have this figured out.
Andy Johns: Okay.
Chris Townson: It is a learning process every day as we go, but I do think there’s great value in partnerships. I’ll also preface my comments with saying that the word partnership probably means very different things to different people.
Andy Johns: Yes, and I wanted to get into that, for sure.
Chris Townson: Okay, yeah, we can definitely talk about that in a bit. And so, I think we have different types of partnerships. So, I’m 31 years in the industry at this point, starting in outside plant, information systems, government and regulatory all the way through. I did 21.5 years at Farmers Telecommunications Cooperative in Alabama.
Andy Johns: Rainsville.
Chris Townson: Yep, that’s where I grew up. After that, I was CEO at DTC Communications for about nine years in Middle Tennessee. And then I’ve been at West Carolina for about a year. I guess maybe, I don’t know if it’s unique or not, but I’ve been involved with different partnerships at each of those companies. In Alabama, we had a partnership with North Alabama Electric. I think they had been an awardee of it was either a BTOP or a BIP grant originally, and we –
Andy Johns: One of the real early ones.
Chris Townson: It was one of the very early ones. And we went over and helped them out a little bit, with the services, and that was a partnership that lasted for quite some time, and then ultimately dissolved. And then when I was in Tennessee, the seven co-ops, telephone co-ops there in the state ultimately are owners of a company that we created called Trilight. And that company has partnerships with an electric co-op in East Tennessee, also provides other services for municipalities throughout the state as well. And then now, when I came over to West Carolina, I think they’re very well known for their partnership with Blue Ridge Electric Cooperative. We operate under the brand name or brand partnership, Upcountry Fiber. And so, we just passed about 25,000 total broadband connections there.
Chris Townson: Obviously provide other services for those guys as well. But in addition to that, even before that Upcountry partnership, West Carolina began operating, essentially was approached by Columbia County, Georgia to hit some spaces that needed some help outside of military base. And so we have a few customers down in Columbia County. Greenwood County, which is a county just east of our ILEC territory, had significant growth there because they were underserved communities. The city of Newberry is also a partner where they owned fiber, asked us to come over and essentially help manage and operate that and serve a few thousand customers there. And then that led ultimately, I think, because of all of that to the Upcountry partnership. So, a lot of different type of partnerships. And even one that we will announce soon that we just signed with another electric cooperative to join them in providing some business solutions, managed services, and maybe some voice type services as well. They connect all their customers with broadband and do an excellent job at that. And rather than spending the type of money and effort it would take to kind of take all that other stuff to another level, they’ve approached us, and we’re excited that that’ll be online very soon as well.
Andy Johns: That is exciting. And by the time the podcast comes out, there may be more information out about that. So I think that’s great. So I guess let’s start, partnerships take work. It takes work to build broadband, however you’re going to do it. Why partner with folks? What are some of the big reasons? Because some folks have decided to go it alone.
Chris Townson: Yeah.
Andy Johns: There’s all kinds of funding sources out there. Why have partnerships been the right answer for some of the organizations you’ve been involved with?
Chris Townson: Yeah, I mean, I think first of all, a company our size, you know, even though we had about 10,000 customers originally, you know, 10 or 12 years ago, a company our size can’t do everything. And I think you need to be opportunistic in what brings the best results. And obviously we all need to stay true to our mission. Our mission always has been and always will be to serve our members and essentially lift the quality of life in the communities that we serve. And in doing that, I think we begin to look out at opportunities to replace revenue. I mentioned this on the panel earlier. Our company was highly dependent on USF. We knew, you know, 10 or 12 years ago, there’s always a risk there. You know, and the company decided we want to find a way to replace that revenue. And if we’re going to go into other markets, we have a choice to try to bear that burden alone. Do we want to burden our members with all of those investment costs, or is there a like minded partner that we could work with that maybe gets us to market faster, the return on investment is better, and keeps us true to our mission, at the same time? Each of those different partnerships were evaluated through that lens, and even though each of those partnerships kind of has its own flavor, each of those check the boxes that allowed us to do those things.
Andy Johns: You mentioned it earlier. Let’s get into what partnership means because we’ve seen it play out different ways. Some folks will create a brand new entity. That’s more like the Trilight model, where it’s a whole new entity. Others, it’s leasing fiber, and they’re different answers. But what are some of the ways that you’ve seen it? When people say “partnership,” what are we usually talking about?
Chris Townson: Yeah, I think it is all over the board. I do think you have companies that go into those legal partnerships, and that’s probably the right decision in those places. It definitely was the right decision in Tennessee when we created the Trilight entity. I think those guys, I’m still great friends with all of them. And they would all tell you that that’s been a very successful endeavor serving the people there in East Tennessee specifically, and I think that model works for them. I think for West Carolina specifically, the reason to not create another legal entity was simply the makeup of each of those unique groups and the resources that each of those brought to the table already.
Andy Johns: Okay.
Chris Townson: So Columbia County and Newberry already had fiber in the ground. And so they already owned assets working with municipals and county entities sometimes, the law would make it very hard for you to be a business partner with them rather than leasing their network to do services. So those are pretty easy when it comes down from a legal perspective to me. When it comes to other like minded companies like Blue Ridge, and that was strongly considered with West Carolina, is do we create another entity that we operate together and share those resources? At the end of the day, the electric co-op already had poles. They were fantastic at building networks. And they wanted to take ownership of that part of serving their members. And so I think ultimately the decision was made in that quote unquote partnership, right, to say, “Hey, we want to own the primary network. You guys take it, you know, from the drop in, and make it happen with the customers face-to-face.” Uniquely because of their interest in their own communities and their great name they bring to the table, they wanted to stay highly engaged in the marketing aspect, too. And so,
Andy Johns: That is a little different than what you see sometimes.
Chris Townson: So both companies are doing different marketing aspects. And what I love is essentially they’re taking care of all of what I would call macro marketing and communication. So they’re billboards and brand sponsorship and that kind of stuff. And then we’re doing the direct to consumer and direct to business and all the digital. And our teams have had to work really hard to make it happen. But I think it’s been very successful when we work together and we continue to refine that relationship.
Andy Johns: Certainly. Well, I mean, when we’re talking about partnership, and it sounds like we’re talking about dating and marriage and all that kind of stuff, but just the way that we’re talking about, let’s talk about kind of that beginning when you’re kind of, you know, feeling each other out a little bit, and then the middle, and then if it comes to the end, hopefully it doesn’t. But so let’s talk about that beginning piece. How do you and you said, I believe at West Carolina, all of the partnerships there have been incoming calls. Somebody has reached out to West Carolina. How do you know, when you think there might be a potential there, how do you go about assessing, “Is this a good partnership? Will this work?”
Chris Townson: Yeah, I think first of all, I think what has to be answered is there a need, right? Is there a need for a service to be provided that we know how to provide well?
Andy Johns: Sure.
Chris Townson: Because if not, then it’s probably not going to work out.
Andy Johns: Yeah, yeah.
Chris Townson: But I think early on, essentially when that need is discovered and the opportunity to sit down and begin discussions with the potential other party is kind of figuring out what the goals are, right. Is the goal here to be, you know, to make tons and tons of money? If it is, we probably don’t need to go build broadband networks, right?
Andy Johns: Right.
Chris Townson: If the goal here is to serve people and make enough return on that investment to make it worthwhile, then we probably can continue the conversation. And so from an evaluation standpoint, I think you have definitely is you begin to evaluate is, can these teams work together? Is there a like mindedness here in what’s trying to be accomplished? And if so, then probably you can continue to walk that forward. For me, one of the things I like to do, Andy, is I like to go in and create a business model from begin to end. So when we start looking at whether this is going to work or not, it’s going to be really hard when we’re talking about this kind of money that has to be invested is let’s make a decision and then figure it out.
Chris Townson: And don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot of that has to happen. There has to be a lot of trust between these groups. But for me, I like to go in and build a business model from beginning to end that looks essentially at a projected pro forma from, you know, a 20-year period. That’s not unique to me. I’m not the first person to do that. But when we do that, we can go in and say, “Does this project even make sense? And is it the right decision for our members?” Because I think a lot of times what we figure out is sometimes places think they’re unserved or underserved, and it’s not as bad as they think. In other words, portions of the area are unserved or underserved, but maybe it’s not as big of a need overall. So come build my whole county. Come build my whole service territory. And then you realize only 25% have a need. Everybody else is served okay. That’s not always the case, but I think you have to go in and figure out what’s the real need? Once you do that and figure out, can the money even work to pay for itself?
Andy Johns: Is it viable? Yeah.
Chris Townson: There you go. Then the groups can sit back down. That’s kind of that middle phase. Then the groups can sit back down and say, “Okay, this is doable. Now, what’s your part? What’s my part? How do we ensure that every party of this wins long term?” Because if there’s a winner and a loser, it’s not going to work long term.
Andy Johns: That’s not how partnerships should work.
Chris Townson: But if we can win, then you begin to walk forward towards that. You know, towards the contract signing and all of the details ironed out and putting our teams together. And, you know, I think you and I have talked about this a little bit offline and ensuring that there’s exit clauses in these things because at some point, you know, sometimes you got to walk away from a partnership. Even if it’s five years, ten years down the road, you want to make sure that everybody’s protected in that time frame as well.
Andy Johns: Sure. And we’ll certainly get into that. One of the things, and this did not surprise me, knowing you, but, the intentionality with which those relationships are maintained in the partnership I thought was interesting. You mentioned in the panel that the boards get together every month, every two weeks.
Chris Townson: The boards are at least a couple times a year. The leadership teams are consistently in communication and the operational teams spend, they dedicate an entire day every other week, every other Wednesday. Yeah. That’s the operational teams from both organizations are in a room together going over what’s been accomplished and essentially what has to be accomplished next. Make sure we’re overcoming any problems, looking at any challenges. Our company has been the largest recipient of broadband grants in the state of South Carolina. And so ensuring that we’re obviously doing all the paperwork and everything that has to be done to communicate back with the broadband office and ORS, because all of those things are important. And in addition to that, when it comes to my job and Mr. Lovinggood’s job, the CEO of of Blue Ridge and others that are in the leadership level that we are, we’re ensuring that community partners are informed and engaged and legislators. And we want everybody to know what’s happening, so there’s not a miscommunication during this, and we miss something that’s very important for the communities we’re trying to serve.
Andy Johns: You mentioned downstairs, so I’m not the one bringing it up. You brought it up when it comes to ego and, you know, other things like that. What are some of the things to be done among that leadership? Like you said, you can’t have winners and losers. You’ve got to keep it going. What are some of the ways that throughout that in addition to the operational pieces, the paperwork like you talked about, to keep that mission alive, keep that focus, that reason. You know, the whole Simon Sinek start with why. How do you keep that involved with everybody and to keep any of those egos or anything from cropping up?
Chris Townson: Yeah, I mean, I think like mindedness early on ensures that and communicating that consistently. Continually taking the temperature of what’s going on. Like myself and Mr. Lovinggood, for example, if nothing else, we’ll share a text every week or two weeks and make sure that everything’s okay. We meet together as often as we can for lunch. Just again, constantly taking that temperature of is your team getting what you need from my team? And again we already know the answer. Our teams are amazing. They’re highly engaged. They don’t need us to to figure out how to do this. But it’s our job to ensure that everyone has the resources. The why is always there. We never forget that. And there’s a real danger to that, Andy, because if we ever get into the forgetting, the why, then it becomes about me and you and not us and the customer, us and the community. And so I think you just got to have, you got to ensure that that’s there relationally. I do think that we can probably all do a better job of putting that in our agreements to an extent. And what I mean by that is the metrics we’re all trying to reach and how there’s, you know, putting pressure on each other. But the right kind of pressure, I think that’s very important that we clearly define those expectations early, we gauge those expectations, and we communicate those to each other. So if we’re missing the mark, we don’t wake up 2 or 3 years down the road and realize we really messed up and missed something altogether. It’s very important. I will say this being a human that I am, it’s really easy to let ego crop up, right? It’s easy to say,
Andy Johns: Sure, for anybody.
Chris Townson: Look at what we’re doing. If you’re winning, it would be easy for some people to say, “Well, I can do that. I can figure that out. We don’t need somebody else to get that done.” And it may be true.
Andy Johns: And we’ve seen examples of that nationally around the country.
Chris Townson: There are people doing a fantastic job on their own, and there’s nothing wrong with that if that’s where you need to be. But I do think that there are many instances where we can work together. We can kind of push our own ego aside a little bit and say, “Hey, it’ll be harder to work together. I may not even get quite as much return on investment, but for the appropriate amount of risk, we get the best return for our members, our customers, and our company. And that’s really why we’re here to do what we do anyway.” So I think it’s important to keep that at the front of mind.
Andy Johns: Very well said. I’m glad you put it that way. As we’re headed towards the end here, let’s talk about kind of the end of some of those partnerships. How do you know when it’s time to walk away? I mean, you talked about keeping that vision in mind and even putting some contract language in about that potentially. But when do you know that, you know, it’s not a good fit, it’s not going the way you thought despite everybody’s best efforts, it’s time to move on?
Chris Townson: Yeah. Well, I think if we’ve done a good job in our initial contracts, we will have clearly defined thresholds or metrics that need to be met throughout the project’s history. And if we’re not meeting those, and it’s not meeting the needs of the project in general, then there ought to be out clauses for either party or all parties involved where anyone could get out at any time if they needed to. I think we do our companies, our owners, our members, our communities disservices when we kind of jump in the deep end of the pool with no plan of how to get out ever, if needed. Of course, we’re all used to building networks, running them for a lifetime, handing them off to the next group that’s going to run them for their lifetime. But the reality is, sometimes business models change. And we’re in an industry that changes at an extremely high rate of speed. And so I just think we do ourselves a disservice if we don’t put that on paper. Now, what are those things those keys that could say, “Hey, we need to get out?” Well, first of all, if it’s not meeting the financial metrics, you obviously at some point.
Andy Johns: At some point.
Chris Townson: Need to make adjustments or get out because you don’t want to run something into the ground. I also think that, we probably never want to talk about this, but I do think that sometimes leadership change can require, it changes the dynamics and can require a hard look at what’s going on. So for example, two companies partner. They’ve been running this for seven years, even the financials are good. But leadership changes at one company, you know, versus the other. And the mindset, .
Andy Johns: Like you said, everybody’s human.
Chris Townson: The mindset totally goes a different direction.
Andy Johns: Right.
Chris Townson: Right. And we no longer, if being customer focused is the main reason here, and all of a sudden it’s profits in spite of the customer, then a company might want to look at getting out. So I think you just have to define what are those things that would say at that point we’ve got to get out. And if it gets to that point, try to have that defined before you get there. So it’s not all about emotions, and it’s much more about the metrics. And I think it makes it a better process if we have to do that. I won’t get into all the specifics, but I’ve been part of at least one partnership that ultimately dissolved, and it was the right decision for everybody. And nobody’s pointing fingers. It was just the right time, right place, and the right decision was made to get out.
Andy Johns: Sure. And like you said, if you’re charting that progress, it’s kind of like annual reviews with employees. It shouldn’t be a surprise. You know, it should be the kind of thing you’re talking about all along.
Chris Townson: That’s right.
Andy Johns: Last question for you here. And this is the way that we end most of the podcast. But what advice do you have for somebody who is listening to this and saying, you know, we’ve got a group that maybe we can partner to achieve these objectives? What advice would you have for kind of getting the ball rolling?
Chris Townson: Yeah, I think I said this downstairs on the panel is, you know, be at every table, be in every conversation possible.
Andy Johns: Sounds exhausting.
Chris Townson: Yeah. Utilize resources that you have that are maybe even, you know, not what you would think. Like maybe you and another company use the same vendors, for example. And if the vendor is very happy with you, there are times you could talk about those things. I realize not everything can be talked about on the front end with others.
Andy Johns: Of course.
Chris Townson: But I think you’ve got to be proactive. You got to make those phone calls. You got to go have those lunch meetings, and you just got to be open and honest about what you’re trying to do, and see if you can get those people at the table. Now, I guess one thing I’ll say about that is sometimes those calls come very early in the process. Sometimes you get to a feasibility study first on your own before you start that process. Sometimes you start the basics of a business plan before you get to that process, right? Because I don’t want to go spend a year trying to develop a relationship with someone to partner on a business model that’s going to go bankrupt within two years of starting.
Andy Johns: Right.
Chris Townson: I want to have enough information to know that there’s a community need. It’s a viable solution, and then we dive in together to go from there. And I think that’s a good way to approach that.
Andy Johns: And I think if your experience is any indication is to be open minded. I mean, you’re partnering with the county, a couple of municipalities, the electric co-ops. Yeah. All over, so.
Chris Townson: Yeah, and it’s a lot of fun and a lot of great opportunity out there. And again, we don’t have it figured out, but our team works really, really hard. We’re working with good people. And what we figured out is sometimes other people are better at things than we are. And sometimes we’re a little bit better. And if we can figure out how to put those two things together, it probably makes us both better in the end.
Andy Johns: That’s where the magic happens.
Chris Townson: And then the customers win.
Andy Johns: Absolutely. Chris, thanks so much for joining me.
Chris Townson: Yes, sir. Glad to be here.
Andy Johns: He is Chris Townson with West Carolina. I am Andy Johns with Pioneer. Thanks so much for listening. And until we talk again, keep telling your story.
Outro: StoryConnect is produced by Pioneer Utility Resources, a communications cooperative that is built to share your story.